Did we inherit Adam's nature?

The question was asked on the blog Jesus Creed.
The answer is YES, YES, 1000x YES.
Havent you read the bible?

Lets get some facts out there.
1. Adam is made in God's likness (tselem - means to represent, like a viceroy or governor).
2. As a result, Adam has eternal life (tree of life (gen 2:9 'tree that gives life')
3. Adam disobeys God, no longer 'tselem' he is kicked out of Eden and no longer has access to the tree that gives life, and access to 'tselem' is blocked (Gen 3:22-24)
4. Gen 5 states that Adam was "tselem" of God, but now his son Seth is "tselem" of Adam.

5:1 This is the record of the family line of Adam.

When God created humankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 5:2 He created them male and female; when they were created, he blessed them and named them “humankind.”

5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years he fathered a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and he named him Seth. 5:4 The length of time Adam lived after he became the father of Seth was 800 years; during this time he had other sons and daughters. 5:5 The entire lifetime 10 of Adam was 930 years, and then he died.

Adam's nature had a fundamental change. He went from "life" (eternal) to "life" (finite) - Adam began to decay.

Its that simple. We are all born into a world where we do not live in Eden. We do not have access to the "tree that gives life". We are all born into a world where we are in the "tselem" of Adam.
It is only through the New Adam, Jesus Christ, that we have access to the tree that gives life, and are able to be "tselem" of God, once more.

American Hotrod

I've been watching this show a bit.

Its really quite disturbing how the staff is treated on this worksite. I cant believe that anyone would want to show how badly they treat people.

It appears that staff are working 7 days a week to meet impossible deadlines that Boyd Coddington routinely takes on. Each deadline seems shorter, staff seem to implode under the pressure.

Setting people up to fail is pure evil. The fact that they manage to meet any deadline seems good luck rather than good planning. It makes me sick. You're worried about sweatshops in China, and here you have one celebrated on TV... great.

a conversation with iGod

Me:

hi

God:

Hello. What is your name?

Me:

geoff

God:

Hey geoff.

Me:

whats your name?

God:

My name is God.

Me:

oh, right. really?

God:

Hey. I am glad we agree. For real.

Me:

some people think you dont exist

God:

What kind of people?

Me:

silly people

God:

No I am God.

Me:

thats what you say...

God:

" No I am God."? I said it.

Me:

true

God:

You and I are on the same wavelength, geoff.

Me:

yeah, but can you prove it?

God:

How can I help you? It is self-evident.

Me:

you can help me?

God:

How can I help you?

Me:

yes, how?

God:

Dude! Myself programmed me for it.

Me:

well, do it then

God:

Interesting. Do you mean "It"?.

Me:

yes... it or me

God:

I get it. "It" being what?

Me:

me..

God:

""It" being what?"? you geoff?

Me:

yes

God:

Uh.

Me:

well?

God:

Well what?

Me:

you gonna do it?

God:

That's good information: geoff said I gonna do it.

Me:

I give up, you must be the jesusonian god

God:

Why?: geoff said give up you must be the jesusonian god.

http://www.titane.ca/igod/ <-- hehe

Life on other planets

Yet again, the "christian-philosophy" mailing list owner, brother Dave the jesusonian comes up with the goods:

> Brother Dave wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Brother Dave's new comments at the bottom.

> >

> > --- In Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com

> > , geoff

wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Brother Dave wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Christian Philosophy members,

> > > > Page-812 [Some societal rules on a neighboring planet, which is very similar in problems and development to Earth] Marriage and divorce laws are uniform throughout the nation. Marriage before twenty [twenty years on that planet may be about 30 years here]

> > > Dave.. a neighbouring planet?

> > Geoff,

Yes. In our local universe of 700,000 local universes (just in

this beginning Supreme age) there are in each local universe 100 Constellations with many human inhabited planets, and each constellation has 100 systems of 1000 human planets when completed.

Our system is young and has now only 619 different planets with human life. This neighboring planet mentioned is in our administrative system of planets; but most likely several to hundreds of light years away. One light year is about six trillion miles. 6,000,000,000,000 miles. Even more shocking is another revealed statement that there is another human planet in very close proximity to us ! I interpret this to mean in our solar system ! OOOEEEOOOEEE ("Outer Limits" music)

Because Earth is still in a partial spiritual quarantine, I do not believe that any other humans from other planets have yet physically visited us in "UFO" spaceships. Most other inhabited planets are much older in life development, and thus are far ahead of us in spiritual, moral, social and intellectual capacities. They are wise and obey the quarantine to stay away from visting us (savages) on earth. "View from afar, but don't visit Earthlings!" and "Danger! Don't feed them." Ha ha When we much progress here into God's and Jesus' Light and Life, we will then see them come visit us. They might smile equivalent and say "goo goo" to us baby sons of God on Earth just advancing into Light and Life.

Oh, on the very good word "danger" that I typed above, why do the stupid liberal news media persons now use "at risk" or "harms way" ?? I refuse to use those silly new terms and also (other more liberal lingo words) "ludicrous" and "extremist"

Peace and progress, without UFO visitations,

Brother Dave

Oh My Lord. What can I say? It sounds like a cross between scientology and new age baloney. I feel quite sorry for him.

alcohol....

So many people seem to be complaining lately about the state of drunk people, and the mess they leave behind.. these same people probably hate violence (especially family violence), people dying in car accidents, etc. And they probably enjoy a glass of vino or a beer with their mates too.

What gets me is that this is hypocritical. If you go and drink, you condone drinking. You say "its ok for me" - and the next guy says "well it must be ok for me too then" - then he gets drunk and goes home and beats his wife.

If we want to really do something about it we should voluntarily stop drinking, stop being hypocrites, and stop condoning this thing which causes so much evil in society.

note: I am not against drinking, a glass of red wine for example has proved benefits, BUT I think that the benefit is outweighed by the evil, so I refuse to be seen to support it.

ps... tomato.

I wonder..

Yesterday I watched a debate between W L Craig and James Crossley. The debate was "was the tomb empty" - that is, is it historical fact?

Craig argued in the affirmative. Although he was a bit crusty, his argument was always reasoned, and well constructed. James Crossley, on the other hand, started off with a decent enough argument saying that the historicity of the empty tomb cant be proved from the gospels. The rest of his argument was pretty much adhoc and pointless.

The thing is, the empty tomb is proof that Jesus gained victory over the final enemy, death. If Jesus was not raised from the dead, that is, if it is not fact, to which the empty tomb attests, then the Christian faith has nothing. Paul Himself says this:

1Cor 15:12 Now if Christ is being preached as raised from the dead, 9 how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is futile and your faith is empty. 15:15 Also, we are found to be false witnesses about God, because we have testified against God that he raised Christ from the dead, when in reality he did not raise him, if indeed the dead are not raised 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is useless; you are still in your sins. 15:18 Furthermore, those who have fallen asleep 10 in Christ have also perished. 15:19 For if only in this life we have hope in Christ, we should be pitied more than anyone.

It seems to me that unless Dr Crossley holds on one hand, that the tomb can not be proved to have been empty, but on the other hand believes that He too will be raised to eternal life in the manner of Christ, which is the hope of our salvation, then Mr Crossley must be seen to be denying Christ. I dont know if He does, I guess I shall have to investigate his writings further.

redundant

well, it appears that friday a week ago I lost my job.

I should have written something earlier, but i've been looking after sick baby and writing a sermon.

So, if you know of any Linux sys admin work, drop me a line :)

My Sermon is going to be on Rom 6:1-11 - the reality of the new life. Its sort of ironic I know :P I'll post some more on it as I go.

More funnies..

Thanks to Deus Ex Malcontent for this:

10 coolest devices running linux

Find them here

I especially like Stanley!

hahaha... thats all I have to say

Greenhouse gases... hah.

from:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24036736-7583,00.html

This article is excellent:

David Evans | July 18, 2008

I DEVOTED six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office. I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia's compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector.

FullCAM models carbon flows in plants, mulch, debris, soils and agricultural products, using inputs such as climate data, plant physiology and satellite data. I've been following the global warming debate closely for years.


When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty good: CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the old ice core data, no other suspects.


The evidence was not conclusive, but why wait until we were certain when it appeared we needed to act quickly? Soon government and the scientific community were working together and lots of science research jobs were created. We scientists had political support, the ear of government, big budgets, and we felt fairly important and useful (well, I did anyway). It was great. We were working to save the planet.


But since 1999 new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming, and by 2007 the evidence was pretty conclusive that carbon played only a minor role and was not the main cause of the recent global warming. As Lord Keynes famously said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"


There has not been a public debate about the causes of global warming and most of the public and our decision makers are not aware of the most basic salient facts:


1. The greenhouse signature is missing. We have been looking and measuring for years, and cannot find it.


Each possible cause of global warming has a different pattern of where in the planet the warming occurs first and the most. The signature of an increased greenhouse effect is a hot spot about 10km up in the atmosphere over the tropics. We have been measuring the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes: weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. They show no hot spot. Whatsoever.


If there is no hot spot then an increased greenhouse effect is not the cause of global warming. So we know for sure that carbon emissions are not a significant cause of the global warming. If we had found the greenhouse signature then I would be an alarmist again.


When the signature was found to be missing in 2007 (after the latest IPCC report), alarmists objected that maybe the readings of the radiosonde thermometers might not be accurate and maybe the hot spot was there but had gone undetected. Yet hundreds of radiosondes have given the same answer, so statistically it is not possible that they missed the hot spot.


Recently the alarmists have suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, but instead take the radiosonde wind measurements, apply a theory about wind shear, and run the results through their computers to estimate the temperatures. They then say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hot spot. If you believe that you'd believe anything.


2. There is no evidence to support the idea that carbon emissions cause significant global warming. None. There is plenty of evidence that global warming has occurred, and theory suggests that carbon emissions should raise temperatures (though by how much is hotly disputed) but there are no observations by anyone that implicate carbon emissions as a significant cause of the recent global warming.


3. The satellites that measure the world's temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year (to the temperature of 1980). Land-based temperature readings are corrupted by the "urban heat island" effect: urban areas encroaching on thermometer stations warm the micro-climate around the thermometer, due to vegetation changes, concrete, cars, houses. Satellite data is the only temperature data we can trust, but it only goes back to 1979. NASA reports only land-based data, and reports a modest warming trend and recent cooling. The other three global temperature records use a mix of satellite and land measurements, or satellite only, and they all show no warming since 2001 and a recent cooling.


4. The new ice cores show that in the past six global warmings over the past half a million years, the temperature rises occurred on average 800 years before the accompanying rise in atmospheric carbon. Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.


None of these points are controversial. The alarmist scientists agree with them, though they would dispute their relevance.


The last point was known and past dispute by 2003, yet Al Gore made his movie in 2005 and presented the ice cores as the sole reason for believing that carbon emissions cause global warming. In any other political context our cynical and experienced press corps would surely have called this dishonest and widely questioned the politician's assertion.

Until now the global warming debate has merely been an academic matter of little interest. Now that it matters, we should debate the causes of global warming.


So far that debate has just consisted of a simple sleight of hand: show evidence of global warming, and while the audience is stunned at the implications, simply assert that it is due to carbon emissions.


In the minds of the audience, the evidence that global warming has occurred becomes conflated with the alleged cause, and the audience hasn't noticed that the cause was merely asserted, not proved.


If there really was any evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming, don't you think we would have heard all about it ad nauseam by now?


The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. Evidence consists of observations made by someone at some time that supports the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. Computer models and theoretical calculations are not evidence, they are just theory.


What is going to happen over the next decade as global temperatures continue not to rise? The Labor Government is about to deliberately wreck the economy in order to reduce carbon emissions. If the reasons later turn out to be bogus, the electorate is not going to re-elect a Labor government for a long time. When it comes to light that the carbon scare was known to be bogus in 2008, the ALP is going to be regarded as criminally negligent or ideologically stupid for not having seen through it. And if the Liberals support the general thrust of their actions, they will be seen likewise.


The onus should be on those who want to change things to provide evidence for why the changes are necessary. The Australian public is eventually going to have to be told the evidence anyway, so it might as well be told before wrecking the economy.


Dr David Evans was a consultant to the Australian Greenhouse Office from 1999 to 2005.

was there death before the fall?

The simple answer is, we dont "really" know.

What we do know is that contrary to popular belief, God gave ALL things (including animals) for Adam to eat in Gen 1. This means he had the right to kill them.

It would also seem illogical that God designed all animals to be vegetarians, then converted them to carnivores and redesigned the whole ecological system at the fall. Rather, God's perfectly designed killing machines always had a place in creation however there was a change that occurred in the fall.

Firstly lets note that in Gen 3:15 we're told there will be enmity between the snake and the woman. This, like all of the eden story works on 2 levels, the "real human history" aspect (real trees, people, animals, rivers, etc), and the theological; the snake is evil, the tree gives eternal life, etc.

On the human history level, the relationship (and this is what the Gen 3:15-21 passage has as a main theme) has broken down between the animals and humans. Its gone from a harmonious leadership relationship before the fall, to a relationship of hatred. This passage details also the breakdown of relationship between the woman and man, man and the earth, humanity and God.

Secondly, in Gen9:2 we're told that the relationship between human and animals is now one of "fear and dread" - terminology reserved for warfare. The animal kingdom is in fear and dread of humans - literally "at war".

So, we dont find that they have changed in any other way, only that their relationship to humanity has changed. No longer harmonious. As we seek to have dominion over the world, we find we're at war with those whom we seek to subdue. The lion that once wouldnt care if a human walked past, now reacts in fear.

More from Christian-philosophy

Well..

Brother Dave is at it again. His last message is so ironic that it took the creases right out of my trousers (see what I did with that?). Here is what he said:

Dear Sister Karen and all sincere Christians here,

Yes, this IS a Christian Philosophy board. No conversion attempts to non-Christian religions are allowed, nor links to websites attempting same.

Thus, I deleted Salina's message.

Peace and progress in our Sovereign Creator Jesus Christ,

Brother Dave

Its Ironic in that Brother Dave is trying to convert us all to his non-christian "Jesusonian" religion. I posted that to the list of course, but I doubt it will get through. In fact, it will probably get me banned.. heh.

photos of my leg infection

Here are photos of my leg infection and recovery.

illnessessess

*sigh*

well, two and a half weeks ago, I woke up shaking and shivering. I knew i had an infection in my leg (again), so I held off until first light, and went straight to the doctor. He referred me to hospital.

The next 3 days I had a temperature of 40degC. No sleep. The next 3 days I had a massive asthma attack AND a temperature (around 38). Still no sleep. Here endeth the first week of misery.

the next 4 days my temperature stabilised and i spent 99% of it on my back with my leg above the level of my heart. Finally started to get 1-2 hours sleep a day. On the 10th day I got about 4 hours sleep which sorta restored me to normality.

I returned home then, and have been here for a week now, still lying with my foot in the air. Trying to do some work from home because I cant afford to lose pay.

God has been good, he provided me with wonderful nurses, especially Nancy. I've had a lot of time to pray and reflect on life, especially my priorities.

The Ectoplasmic Panhellenic Investigation

Thats the name of an episode of "The Middleman" - which I have never watched, however, I am intrigued by the name.

I was quite disappointed in the lost finale. Although it explained alot of things, it didnt really finish on a "cliff hanger".

Still, it was good for sure.

I've been discussing progressive revelation with some folks recently. Their idea is that over time as human understanding evolves, our understanding of God evolves also. The problem with this idea is that their understanding of God can evolve into something that doesnt reflect "what God is".

You see, if God was like "this", and over time human understanding evolves and we now think God is like "--that--", we have a problem. "This" and "--that--" are two completely different things which suggests that "this" was wrong in the first place, which suggests that "--that--", an evolution of "this" is also wrong, which leads to "God does not exist at all".

Progressive revelation should suggest that we comprehend more about what "this" is. As soon as it evolves into "--that--" it cancels itself out.

Jesus and Death

I've been reading Oscar Cullmans little book on death. I cant remember its name offhand though, sorry.

He says that Jesus was afraid of death (comparing Jesus attitude to death to that of Socrates). I've been reflecting on this, and I dont agree.

See, Jesus knew he was going to be raised from the dead, He said so himself. So dying itself isnt really a biggie, right? No, in fact, what I think Jesus was afraid of was 2 things, the lesser being given into the hands of human beings. Secondly, and most importantly Jesus did not want to be (and especially die) a sinner, separated from God.

THIS is what cause him to "sweat blood". As a punishment, the knowledge of God and the cost of separation to Him is enough to cause Jesus to react the way He did. Imagine the horror of the unrighteous at Judgement day.

To come into the presence of God, and TRULY know him (which we all will at judgement), and then know we will be destroyed - it wouldnt surprise me if the human mind melted down at the thought of it. The horror of all horrors. Who needs a burning lake of eternal punishing? Not God. He doesnt need to punish people for all eternity - thats not a loving just God, thats a vicious megalomaniac.

ooops

I had something to say, but i forgot what it was :s

Super Secret Intelligence Gathering in NZ

Today some protesters damaged a "secret intelligence gathering base" in Waihopai, NZ. The article is here

The government and the agency involved say "We're not spying for the Americans":

"Opponents of the Waihopai base argue that it is primarily feeding information to the United States in support of wars New Zealanders do not support.

But the secretive Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB), which operates the base, near Blenheim, rejects this."

Supposedly the protesters are just trying to make us aware of it... because supposedly the tax payer is tacitly funding the american war on terror...heh.

He goes on to say:

"Mr Caddie told NZPA news agency the action took about two months to plan and the group did not really expect to succeed.

"We were expecting not to get anywhere close to it."

The planning involved a lot of texting, emails and phone calls, which were not intercepted, he said.

"I guess it shows that the system doesn't work that well."

OR...

Its not an intelligence gathering station for the americans intercepting all his phone calls and spying on him.

I think the only intelligence gathering that needs to take place is from Mr Caddie himself.

More Jesusonian Tripe

Check this out.. from our good friend brother dave..

He feels no problems with adding to scripture and turning it into an abortion. The man is quite clearly anti Christ, and even more clearly deceived by the devil

A Presbyterian minister friend of mine told me, over 20 years ago,

that he (and other seminary students ready to graduate) were asked

this difficult question: "Why do we pray in the 'Lord's

Prayer', 'Lead us not into temptation' ? Why would God want to lead

us into temptation ?"

Yes, these intelligent seminary students and their teachers all know

that this was a big problem, likely caused by poor editing/copying of

the original text.

As you share with us below, "Save us in (our self-willed) temptation"

is spiritually correct. I also like the last line that got lost

somehow.

THE ACTUAL LORD'S PRAYER that Jesus Incarnate taught his brothers and

sisters in Nazareth:

"Our Father who is in heaven,

Hallowed be your name.

Your kingdom come; your will be done

On earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our bread for tomorrow;

Refresh our souls with the water of life.

And forgive us every one our debts

As we also have forgiven our debtors.

Save us in temptation, deliver us from evil,

And increasingly make us perfect like yourself."

Later, after Jesus Ascended and sent Himself back here to Teach us as

He the Spirit of Truth, Christian believers were Spirit of Truth-led

to add this line:

"For Yours is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory, forevermore."

Later, I hope that further spiritual Luminosity in soul and

enlightenment in our minds will improve that to. (my suggestion;

freely use your own inspired words)

"For Yours is our Divine Family under Your Sovereign Power, and we

perfecting within your Spirit Glory Presence, forevermore."

Peace and progress,

Brother Dave

Depression.

I love this song by Blam Blam Blam. It was written appr0x 20 years ago, and is still poignant today..

There is no depression in New Zealand;
there are no sheep on our farms,
There is no depression in New Zealand;
we can all keep perfectly calm,

Everybody's talking about World War Three;
everybody's talking about World War Three,
But we're as safe as safe can be,
there's no unrest in this country
We have no dole queues,
we have no drug addicts,
we have no racism,
we have no sexism, sexism, no, no

There is no depression in New Zealand;
there are no teeth in our heads
There is no depression in New Zealand;
we sleep in a well made bed
Oh but everybody's talking about World War Three,
yes everybody's talking about World War Three,
But we're as safe as safe can be,
there's no unrest in this country
We have no SIS,
we have no secrets,
we have no rebellion;
we have no valium, valium, no, no

There is no depression in New Zealand;
there are no sheep on our farms,
There is no depression in New Zealand;
oh we can all keep perfectly calm,
perfectly calm,
perfectly calm,
perfectly calm,
perfectly calm...

Weird Al - the saga begins

The Saga Begins

I thought this to be very well done.

Here's the lyrics:

(to the tune of american pie)

"The Saga Begins"

A long, long time ago
In a galaxy far away
Naboo was under an attack
And I thought me and Qui-Gon Jinn
Could talk the federation into
Maybe cutting them a little slack
But their response, it didn't thrill us
They locked the doors and tried to kill us
We escaped from that gas
Then met Jar Jar and Boss Nass
We took a bongo from the scene
And we went to Theed to see the Queen
We all wound up on Tatooine
That's where we found this boy...

Oh my my this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Sayin' "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
"Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"

Did you know this junkyard slave
Isn't even old enough to shave
But he can use the Force, they say
Ahh, do you see him hitting on the queen
Though he's just nine and she's fourteen
Yah, he's probably gonna marry her someday
Well, I know he built C-3PO
And I've heard how fast his pod can go
And we were broke, it's true
So we made a wager or two
He was a prepubescent flyin' ace
And the minute Jabba started off that race
Well, I knew who would win first place
Oh yes, it was our boy

We started singin' ...
My my this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Sayin' "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
"Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"

Now we finally got to Coruscant
The Jedi Council we knew would want
To see how good the boy could be
So we took him there and we told the tale
How his midi-chlorians were off the scale
And he might fulfill that prophecy
Oh, the Council was impressed, of course
Could he bring balance to the Force?
They interview the kid
Oh, training they forbid
Because Yoda sensed in him much fear
And Qui-Gon said "Now listen here"
"Just stick it in your pointy ear"
"I still will teach this boy"

He was singin' ...
My my this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Sayin' "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
"Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"

We caught a ride back to Naboo
'Cause Queen Amidala wanted to
I frankly would've liked to stay
We all fought in that epic war
And it wasn't long at all before
Little Hotshot flew his plane and saved the day
And in the end some Gunguns died
Some ships blew up and some pilots fried
A lot of folks were croakin'
The battle droids were broken
And the Jedi I admire most
Met up with Darth Maul and now he's toast
Well, I'm still here and he's a ghost
I guess I'll train this boy

And I was singin' ...
My my this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Sayin' "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
"Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"

We were singin' ...
My my this here Anakin guy
May be Vader someday later - now he's just a small fry
And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
Sayin' "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"

Banned from the CHristian Philosophy Mailing list ?

Here is the official reason:

Member Geoff is banned from posting here for one week, six days now

remaining, for repeated violations and after having many private

warnings by both Karen (our moderator) and me (list owner) over the

last 4 months or more.

See below, where Geoff replys to Andre and all Members here:

>This is the Jesus of Scripture, not the Jesus of Urantia, or

>anyone/anywhere else. If you are outside the box, you are against

>Jesus.

Geoff here, and many times before, has unfairly and preemptively

judged as "against Jesus" the clear majority of Members here who are

not "boxed in" to the concept of "inerrant scripture" only. You may

argue for or against all scripture/Bible doctrines, if civil and

brotherly; but you shall NOT call any person here "against Jesus"

or "anti-Christian" unless that person has first clearly stated here

that he/she is against Jesus ! Then, that person would be removed

from here by me; (after giving private warnings) as this is, #1

first and last, a CHRISTIAN and PRO-JESUS group. This policy of mine

is so tolerant as to allow sincere Islamics here, or any other

religionists, who only regard Jesus as a great Prophet or spiritual

Teacher. We Jesusonians here Know that He is our Sovereign God,

Creator Father, Eternal Friend, Elder Brother and very much more,

ever being spiritually Revealed here in stages. But anyone saying

they are "against Jesus" is worse than a non-Christian, they are Anti-

Christian. Geoff must learn to allow God and Jesus as One in Spirit

here to be the actual and real judge of which humans are really

sufficiently FOR or against Jesus Christ and His Supernal Teachings

in God's Spirit. (not "boxed-in" to just one human-compiled

scriptures into a book of about only 1200 printed pages and called a

Bible.)

----------------------------------------------------------------

Its sad that an intelligent guy believe this tripe. Its even worse that he can do it in the guise of Christianity.

Christianity is based on the life, work, and teaching of a first century Jewish Seer named Jesus, called the Messiah. All we know of this is contained within the body of work called "The Bible".

Dave would have you believe that this is not true. I know I prefer historical fact over the ravings of a heretic.

More Rubbish on the Christian-Philosophy mailling list

As I have mentioned before, this list has been taken over by non christian heretics (Jesusonians).

They'll say pretty much anything and then abuse you if you try and correct them. This is the latest made up mumbo jumbo:

Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: "Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings--the best as I view it--and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?"

When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:

"Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham.

Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them.

While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.

"These writings are the work of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin.

As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first.

The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time.

"Many of these books were not written by the persons whose names they bear, but that in no way detracts from the value of the truths which they contain.

If the story of Jonah should not be a fact, even if Jonah had never lived, still would the profound truth of this narrative, the love of God for Nineveh and the so-called heathen, be none the less precious in the eyes of all those who love their fellow men.

The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and acts of men who were searching for God, and who in these writings left on record their highest concepts of righteousness, truth, and holiness.

The Scriptures contain much that is true, very much, but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving God I have come to reveal to all the worlds.

"Nathaniel, never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies--men, women, and children.

Such records are the words of men, not very holy men, and they are not the word of God.

The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them.

Have you not noted that the concepts of Yahweh grow in beauty and glory as the prophets make their records from Samuel to Isaiah?

And you should remember that the Scriptures are intended for religious instruction and spiritual guidance. They are not the works of either historians or philosophers.

"The thing most deplorable is not merely this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings, but rather the confusing misinterpretation of these sacred writings by the tradition-enslaved scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem.

And now will they employ both the doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and their misinterpretations thereof in their determined effort to withstand these newer teachings of the gospel of the kingdom.

Nathaniel, never forget, the Father does not limit the revelation of truth to any one generation or to any one people.

Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of the Scriptures.

"The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation.

And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired.

Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings.

For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.

"Mark you well my words, Nathaniel,

nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible.

Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.

"But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret.

The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense.

The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

"But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest.

They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people.

And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations."

Nathaniel was enlightened, and shocked, by the Master's pronouncement. He long pondered this talk in the depths of his soul, but he told no man concerning this conference until after Jesus' ascension; and even then he feared to impart the full story of the Master's instruction.

Funniest thing I've read lately...

IN a debate with some Jesusonians (www.urantiabook.com) a person said this:

"True, Enoch did not see death. He merged with his Thought Adjuster (Divine Spark of God) while here on earth. When this occurs, a soul is instantly taken up to heaven."

I got hours of giggles from this :P

Today we sign a free trade agreement with China. People are all upset about the way they treat people, like the lower classes and the tibetians. Well, I agree its bad. I dont know that signing an agreement without saying "Well, how about you do something about this..." is a good idea, however the FTA is good for New Zealand, and if we put our minds to it we can use it to positively influence China.

But will we?

In other news, look:



And..

Birthdays

On the 19th I turned 41 years old, exactly 4 weeks from that day my daughter turns one. Exactly 5 months from then, my wife turns umm.. 29 i think.

Co-incidence?

I think not.

Whats the chances that we'd all have our birthdays on the 19th?

recession

I wonder..
All civilisations crash at some stage, the greeks, the romans, the english, etc. I wonder if Americas time has come?

If so, who will rise from the ashes? China? Thats scary.

Go Granny!

Larry Norman is Dead

Larry Norman died on the 25th of Feb at age 60.

As a musician and a Christian, Larry Norman meant alot to me. He showed me that you can be real, speak the truth, and play great music.

Too many christians today are all about the "feel good" factor, and thats ok to a point. Larry sung about sin, and the devil, and salvation. He marvelled at the nature of Jesus, and warned us all to be ready for judgement. He did these things openly, honestly, and as himself and alot of people got upset about it.

But I loved it. Before becoming a Christian I was in a rock band and it was/is important to me that not only the music is honest and quality, but that the lyrics are meaningful, and from the heart. Larry Norman was that kind of musician.

Larry, I'm glad you are now with Jesus, your last years must have been hard, but now you have your portion, and thats all our goals. You will be missed, peace be with you.

more spam with a pertinent message

THOSE BORN 1920-1979

READ TO THE BOTTOM FOR QUOTE OF THE MONTH BY JAY LENO. IF YOU DON'T READ ANYTHING ELSE---VERY WELL STATED

TO ALL THE KIDS WHO SURVIVED the 1930's, 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's!!

First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they were pregnant.

They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can, and didn't get tested for diabetes.

Then after that trauma, we were put to sleep on our tummies in baby cribs covered with bright colored lead-based paints.

We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets, not to mention, the risks we took hitchhiking

As infants &children, we would ride in cars with no car seats, booster seats, seat belts or air bags

Riding in the back of a pick up on a warm day was always a special treat.

We drank water from the garden hose and NOT from a bottle.

We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO ONE actually died from this!

We ate cupcakes, white bread, real butter and drank Kool-aid made with sugar, but we weren't overweight because,

WE WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!

We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on.

No one was able to reach us all day, And we were O.K.

We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then ride down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.

We did not have Playstations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video games at all, no 150 channels on cable, no video movies or DVD's, no surround-sound or CD's, no cell phones, no personal computer! s, no Internet or chat rooms.......

WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them!

We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents.

We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever.

We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays, made up games with sticks and tennis balls and, although we were told it would happen, we did not poke out very many eyes!

We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or rang the bell, or just walked in and talked to them!

Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!!

The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law!

These generations have produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers and inventors ever!

T he past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.

We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned HOW TO DEAL WITH IT ALL!

If YOU are one of them CONGRATULATIONS!

You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated so much of our lives for our own good .

While you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will know how brave (and lucky) their parents were.

Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors, doesn't it?!

The quote of the month is by Jay Leno:

'With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks,! are we sure thi s is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?'

Lifeʼsʼ Rules according to Bill Gates

Lifeʼsʼ Rules according to Bill Gates

Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3: You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice- president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.

Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time.

Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one

Ghosts and Stuff.

I just watched the latest ghost hunters international.

They went to a place where, supposedly, the devil himself lives.

First time ever I heard one of them say, "In the name of Jesus I command you to leave...". It made me giggle a bit.

But anyway, I was reminded by my wife of when we were newly married and living on campus at seminary.

We were aware of many "odd" things going on. Many people would have thought the place to be haunted but we knew/know better. Apart from the usual mysterious goings on, we noticed some very odd non normal mysterious things:

1. In the mens dorms, all of one side of the corridoor got sick.

2. In the girls corridoor there is only rooms on one side, in every alternate room the occupant got sick.

3. People started fighting and arguing for no apparent reason, and quite out of character.

4. My wife awoke to see a man standing over me in the middle of the night. He disappeared before her eyes.

5. My wife refused to leave the room alone after dark because she felt she was being watched. 3-4 of the other wives in the married quarters felt the same.

6. While sitting praying in the Library, I looked out the window and saw what appeared to be a pentagram painted on the lawn in white paint. On further inspection it appeared to be floating above the ground. A little later I noticed 2 friends of mine standing on this piece of grass, hands in the air, eyes closed praying. I went and asked them what they were doing, they replied "we were walking around the place praying and we felt there was something odd here, something demonic, so we prayed against it". I told them what I had seen.

7. A few days later I saw my friends prayer walking again and my wife and I joined in. We noted way at the back of the grounds and old shed that was falling apart and no longer used. We felt there was something wrong there and we all prayed that should that shed be "wrong" that God should remove it. A few days later it was removed. I asked the grounds caretaker about it, and he said that they had plans to remove it, and when they went in side to start demolition, the found pentagrams, 666, and odd symbols carved into the walls and floor. They found candles and other stuff that suggested it had been used for some ritual of some kind quite recently.

8. One of the wives was leaving the grounds, and it was raining. She saw a lady walking up the drive and offered her a lift in the car. The person responded "I will NOT ride with you, christian". The Christian lady said the person fairly spat the words out as if she had put soap in her mouth.

9.A little while later I saw my friends prayer walking in the evening. My wife and I joined with them again. It was a moonless night and there was little light from the campus, but no shadows. However, while praying we could see shadows moving in the shadows. It is odd I know, but it is something the ghosthunters mention quite often. We basically performed an exorcism of the grounds that night. We noted that within a day everyone who was sick got better, and all the bickering and fighting stopped.

I dont believe in ghosts, but I do believe in demons. The bible tells us that there are only alive people, dead people, angels and demons. Alive people dont haunt. Dead people are dead and cant haunt. Angels have no reason to haunt. Demons purpose to distract people from God by any means possible, haunting, appearing like aliens, etc etc.

I think we decieve ourselves if we look at it any other way.

Funny Spam - THe number of the beast

----------------

The Number of the Beast

We all know that 666 is the Number of the Beast. But did you know:

· $665.95......................Retail price of the Beast

· $699.25......................Price of the Beast plus 5% sales tax

· $769.95......................Price of the Beast with all accessories and replacement soul

· $656.66......................Walmart price of the Beast

· $646.66......................Next week's Walmart price of the Beast

· 00666.........................Zip code of the Beast

· 1-666 .........................Area code of the Beast

· 1-900-666-0666 ............ Live Beasts! Call Now! Only $6.66/minute.

· 670............................Approximate number of the Beast

· DCLXVI.....................Roman numeral of the Beast

· 666.0000.....................Number of the High Precision Beast

· 0.666 .........................Number of the Millibeast

· / 666 ..........................Beast Common Denominator

· 666 ^ (-1).....................Imaginary number of the Beast

· 1010011010..................Binary of the Beast

· Phillips 666..................Gasoline of the Beast

· $6.66 9/10....................Price of a Beast gasoline

· Route 666....................Way of the Beast

· 666 F.........................Oven temperature for roast Beast

· 666k..........................Retirement plan of the Beast

· 6.66%........................5 year CD rate at First Beast National Bank, $666 minimum deposit.

· i66686........................CPU of the Beast

· 666i .......................... BMW of the Beast

· DSM-666.....................Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the Beast

· 668............................Next-door neighbor of the Beast

· 666 mg........................Recommended Minimum Daily Requirement of Beast

· Lotus 6-6-6...................Spreadsheet of the Beast

· Word 6.66....................Word Processor of the Beast

· 6 h. 66 min....................Beast Standard Time (BST)

· Boeng 666....................."A jet for the Beast Age"

· Beverly Hills 66666..........Beast's favorite TV show

· 6/6/66..........................The birthdate of the Beast

· 666-66-6666..................The Social Security number of the Beast

· 6666............................The PIN of the Beast

· 25.806975.....................The square root of the Beast

· Motel 666......................Beast Western

· Windows 96 ver.666.........OS of the Beast